Fruits?

[iluvthors]

Hello,

I have two objectives with my diet - I want to be healthy, and I want to be lean. Most of the time, those two go hand in hand... Lean people are healthy people, and vice versa. However when I read about primal (paleo) diets, I often times arrive at a contradiction that I have been trying to flesh out for some time.

The contradiction pertains to fruits. On one hand, I think fruits are an integral component to a healthy diet. They provide much needed vitamins, etc. They are also natural!

However, I also read that too much fruit, or even just some glycemic spiking fruits (oranges, bananas, mangoes, etc.) should be consumed in moderation.

I usually like to end every meal with a small plate of assorted fruits. I think that this contributes to my health, but am worried it might be detracting from my other objective - leaness...

Thoughts?!

Thanks, I look forward to fleshing this dilemma out.

[livinghealthy]

Thor - I have also struggled with this question... Here is how I have dealt with it. This is by no means a scientific explanation, but it is what I THINK is right... Here goes it:

I try to eat fruits just like I eat anything else - sporadically, do not make them a consistent part of your diet... nothing should be. I feel like we should always keep our bodies guessing, wondering what will come next. I think that this keeps our bodies primed and ready to use whatever it is we consume... whether it be a mango, strawberry, or steak.

Anyway, with regard to fruit in specific, I try to eat what is seasonal. Berries are typically better in the winter, so that is what I eat in the winter. Tropical fruits are more prevalent in the summer, that is when I stick to those.

I try to match my diet to that of a cave man. I wonder what a caveman would eat during a certain part of the year, and I follow suit.

I must admit, my imagination takes over in a lot of cases, but I feel as though as long as their is some method to my madness with random eating... it all works out for the best.

Have fruit one day, and not the next. Stick to what is seasonal is my best bet.

[iluvthors]

Thanks livinghealthy... this make a lot of sense... even though your post is kind of all over the place. Do you think an excess of fruit can actually detract from ones health?

[ers]

iluvthors,

As the saying goes, anything in excess is bad for you. This includes fruit. To achieve leanness, you want your body to burn fat, not store it. I'm not saying fruit is bad for you, but it does have a significant amount of sugar, which will spike your insulin and promote fat storage. Still, it would take a ton of fruit to equal the sugar in most processed foods (not to say that this is a healthy amount of sugar). All in all, I think livinghealthy makes some great points.

As an athlete, I eat a ton of fruit for the energy it gives me and the great taste! I think you would have to eat insane amounts to actually notice any detriments to your health, but a lot of fruit definitely impedes leaness.

-ers

[ers]

iluvthors,

As the saying goes, anything in excess is bad for you. This includes fruit. To achieve leanness, you want your body to burn fat, not store it. I'm not saying fruit is bad for you, but it does have a significant amount of sugar, which will spike your insulin and promote fat storage. Still, it would take a ton of fruit to equal the sugar in most processed foods (not to say that this is a healthy amount of sugar). All in all, I think livinghealthy makes some great points.

As an athlete, I eat a ton of fruit for the energy it gives me and the great taste! I think you would have to eat insane amounts to actually notice any detriments to your health, but a lot of fruit definitely impedes leaness.[/QUOTE]

[Get Primal]

Greetings...my first visit to the site. I personally don't eat any fruit. I try to keep the carbs very low and feel like I can get any nutrients provided by fruit from a much lower carb source such as spinach, broccoli, etc. Just one opinion, look forward to trading ideas!

[iluvthors]

Get Primal - this is the kind of response I wanted to hear! So in terms of my two objectives, do you think cutting fruit out would dramatically help me achieve them? What is your body composition like? How are your energy levels? I am impressed with your devotion.

How about like living healthy stated? Do you eat any fruit in the spring or summer? I believe that Cave people did during the warmer months...

O and, do you ever ever get a sweet tooth, and if so, how do you satisfy it?

[BarbeyGirl]

It seems to me that appropriate levels of fruit consumption vary widely depending on each individual's current status and goals.

Because you are working on leaning out, you may do better on less fruit than you've been eating. (Have you counted up the carbs in your typical daily diet?)

My situation is a bit different: I'm quite lean and well-muscled. I strength train, do HIIT, and do a LOT of "moving slowly." My usual daily carb count is around 100/day, and that includes 1-2 servings of fruit. It works well for me.

An endurance athlete who chooses to eat primal would probably do fine on more fruit than is best for either of us.

My point is that I don't think fruit is categorically "good" or "bad" -- it's situation-dependent (and therefore subject to change). :p

[62shelby]

I used to eat berries almost every day, I just kind of fell out of the habit of eating fruit and may eat two pieces a week. Having said that, when I walk into the grocery store in the summer and see all the amazing fruit, I dont stop myself from buying it, blueberries, figs, strawberries, so I guess in a way I am becoming more seasonal.

[pkafka]

Barbey - I like this quote from you... but am inclined to deny it
I don't think fruit is categorically "good" or "bad" -- it's situation-dependent (and therefore subject to change). . But I have a question for you too... What about something like saturated fat? is it categorically "good" or "bad"... about how about dairy? My problem with not calling something intrinsically good or bad is that you remove any objectivity from the entire practice of nutrition. Some could argue the health benefits of a coke are positive in a few situations too - some people might go crazy without one! So, even though I agree, I do not want to! There must be an objective classification for foods, no?

Shelby - I am like you, when I feel like some berries, I eat them. If I see a peach that looks good, why not?! To me, fruit is natural... but gorging on it because it is natural is not an necessarily healthy... I eat it when I want to, which is frequently at times, and never at others.

-pk

[Get Primal]

Saturated fat falls into the same category in my opinion. Coconut oil=good. Saturated animal fat=good or bad depending what the animal consumed when they were alive. I consider grass fed beef or wild caught salmon some of the best foods we can consume. The same grain fed beef or farm raised salmon falls into the "only consume if absolutely necessary" category. Not sure if my theory is correct, just where I currently stand.

[BarbeyGirl]

So, even though I agree, I do not want to! There must be an objective classification for foods, no?

If only it were that easy!

You bring up something I've considered before: It seems to me that the problem with most diets, and the source of much contention among the health-conscious, is our human desire for absolutes. We like our facts simple, cut-and-dried, black-and-white, non-subjective.

But reality just ain't that way.

Even Gatorade, which I think is the devil in a cup 99 times out of 100, makes sense for a triathlete halfway through an Ironman.

I'm working on the theory that the closest thing to absolute truth in nutrition & fitness is found in learning to listen to our bodies. I'm not talking about giving into junk-food cravings because "I must need something that's in those Twinkies," but about training ourselves to recognize true hunger, thirst, weariness, passion -- and choosing accordingly.

But that theory, too, is over-simplistic, no? I can't deny the value of intellectual study and its application to the real world. Hmm.

[pkafka]

Barbey - an interesting theory you are working on... As of now, I am not convinced either way. I actually studied philosophy in college, and what we are arguing is really a much deeper ethical dilemma - how can we judge anyone if nothing is objective? I guess they call it moral relativism... So your theory could be called, "nutritive relativism"??? is that correct?

What is the link to your blog, I seem to have misplaced it. Id like to continue reading a bit more about your thoughts/etc...

-pk

[BarbeyGirl]

Ahhh, moral relativism. Yes, that occurred to me too, as I typed the above. I don't believe in moral relativism.

Nutritive relativism doesn't seem quite right, either. It's not that there aren't facts about nutrition -- both known and unknown -- but that said facts apply differently to different individuals. It's the application of the truth that's situation-dependent, not the truth itself.

Thanks for asking about my blog. :) Nightlife (http://inthenightlife.blogspot.com/) is probably the one you've seen before, but I also write The Barb Wire (http://inthenightfarm.blogspot.com/).

ETA: Hmm, my hyperlinks don't seem to be working. So:
Nightlife: http://inthenightlife.blogspot.com/
The Barb Wire: http://inthenightfarm.blogspot.com/

[livinghealthy]

This thread on fruit has become pretty deep! It is interesting to wonder whther there actually are facts when it comes to nutrition. I wonder this from time to time. I often find myself shaking my head at someone enjoying their bowl of morning oatmeal. I know they think they are being healthy, but as far as I am concerned... They are not such!

But then again, they could look at me, cooking my steak in butter, and think the same exact thing... who is right?

Tough to answer....

[iluvthors]

wow, this thread has taken some twists and turns... but I like an adventure, so cool.

Thanks for all the input regarding fruits, and otherwise.

After reading over this entire thread, I guess my reaction is this - there is no absolute right, there is no absolute wrong. There is wrong for you, and right for you. I am actually inspired to experiment a bit. I think I will cut fruit out of my diet for the next month, and see what happens!

What do you guys think of this?

[Acmebike]

I'll go so far as to say that fruit is a poor nutritional option. There is nothing in fruit that cannot be had from a better food source. And fruit contains fructose. Modern fruit, a neolithic abomination, is powerfully stacked with fructose. The selective breeding has created a "natural candy bar" that has little resemblance to what our ancestors may have stumbled upon rarely so long ago. I look at fruit as a poison that can be tolerated in small, laughably small, rare amounts. I certainly would not deem it to be essential or healthy.

[iluvthors]

Interesting Acme... Strong opinions always intrigue me.

There is this quote that I live by "If you criticize, you better be able to provide a solution."

Can you introduce me to your diet a bit? Sounds like you have done some extensive stuides/experimenting and have arrived at convinced stances.

In fact, if you want, Ill pose this question in a new thread... I think the responses could be interesting. Let me know what you think.

[Acmebike]

No real criticism. Just look at fruits, compare the nutrition with other sources. Spinach, broccoli, kale, etc, all better sources of vitamins, minerals and no fructose poisoning.

[pkafka]

Acme - interesting take...I hear about people who have this belief, but have never had the opportunity to discuss it with them.

What are some of your typical meals? What are your favorite protein sources? You drink Coffee/Tea?

-pk

[Acmebike]

Acme - interesting take...I hear about people who have this belief, but have never had the opportunity to discuss it with them.

What are some of your typical meals? What are your favorite protein sources? You drink Coffee/Tea?

-pk

I'm certainly not a Paleo-saint or hardliner. I know my opinion of fruit makes me sound that way. I eat a bit of dairy, but stick to raw source cream, butter, ghee, and cheese occasionally. Trying to cut dairy back, and am considering purging dairy from my intake entirely. I mainly eat grass fed beef, pasture sourced eggs, fowl and locally hunted game meat. I always get tongue, liver, marrow, and such. I buy local produce, veggies, non starchy as the season allows. I'm not opposed to buying spinach, broccoli, onions, cauliflower and such frozen or shipped in from afar, but in fall/winter I just tend towards meat, fat and organs.

But I'd still maintain that modern fruits are VERY DRASTICALLY different from anything we ever evolved with. And the abundance year round is a drastic departure as well. For my take, fruit should be consumed from wild local stuff when possible, it should be rare and in season only. We are equipped in late summer/fall to blunt the damage done by fruit intake as we have our maximal Vitamin D levels from a summer of sun!

I do drink coffee, only black, French Press or coffee siphon usually. Decaf most of the time. And I am of the opinion that coffee is NOT paleo! Coffee and dairy may need to be tossed from my intake, now that I say that aloud...

[PrimalGirlCA]

Hey guys,

I amnew here, but I agree here that fruit is not categorically bad...you can eat too much, you can eat the "wrong" kinds (better than eating other stuff though)! I think berries are good, apples, grapes, avocados. And anyways, if all you eat is meat all day then it gets very boring afterwhile!

[celtia]

I'm a little late here, but quite a while back I read that we have an evolutionary desire for sweet because fruit and high-carb veggies trigger the fat-storing insulin.

The thinking behind this is that Grok would gorge to his content during the fruit/veggie season and put on a layer of fat that would help sustain him through the winter. Or I suppose it could also be looked at as replacing fat that was lost during the late winter.

Of course, this doesn't make much sense for folks whose lineage springs from climates that have a year-round growing season, but for myself, being of Northern European descent, I think I'm best adding fruit during the summer, veggies during their normal growing season, and then being mostly carnivore with some nuts during the dead of winter.

At least this is the way I'm thinking at the moment. Thoughts?

[BarbeyGirl]

Celtia, I have heard that theory, too, and it does make sense.

Personally, I try to place more weight on the modern science that supports primal eating than on the evolutionary philosophy behind it. For me, for now, that means eating fruit year-round but in moderation (0-2 servings per day) and almost always in combination with fat and/or protein.

[astrogirl]

I think I'm best adding fruit during the summer, veggies during their normal growing season, and then being mostly carnivore with some nuts during the dead of winter.

At least this is the way I'm thinking at the moment. Thoughts?

That's what I'm trying to do at the moment. I do eat berries or a local apple a couple of days a week. We have some Pink Lady apples that come in in late November and it seems nuts not to eat some while they are at their best. My hubby the vegetarian eats most of them, but I've eaten a two in the two weeks we've had them. If I buy 170g package of berries (I buy if they are on sale, basically), I'll have those over two days in two servings. That's about it for fruit.

It's not banned from my diet, but I'd say it's minimized for the season. I will be more liberal with fruit when the local stuff starts to come back in the late spring.

Anyone seen T.S. Wiley's <i>Lights Out: Sleep, Sugar and Survival</i>? It has a lot about how your body prepares for winter.

[carla]

I recently read a National Geographic article about the hunter/gatherers tribe; the Hadzas. The whole article is fascinating, but on the subject of fruit, it surprised me that
the women's contribution picking a certain 'tart' berry probably equals what the men bring in with their hunting. You can find the article if you google 'national geographic and hadza'