Long term effects of a primal diet

[pkafka]

The basic principle of living in the primal fashion - eating naturally - seems like a good lifestyle choice. However, there are a couple of tenets of the primal lifestyle that the mass media (doctors included!!!) contradict:

1. Drastically lower your carb intake
2. Drastically up your fat intake

When I read about the rationale behind these cornerstones, I am often quite convinced by their existence, however, they are sooooo against conventional wisdom that I wonder at times. I second guess myself, and even the way I feel.

Does this happen to anyone else? Do you ever find yourself questioning whether the primal way is the right way? And then start to wonder about the long term effects of the primal lifestyle?

Truthfully, we do not know what the long term effects are, because cave people did not live long enough for us to find out! Has anyone thought of this?

I believe in the tenets, and follow them; who else is with me?

-pk

[ers]

pkafka,

Archaeological records show that some (albeit few) cavemen lived up to 80 years. Granted, most of them died at what we today would consider a "young" age. But bear in mind that they did not die of the things that plague us today like heart disease or diabetes. Rather, they generally met their end through a freak accident. Imagine if they made a wrong step, broke their leg, and couldn't hunt or run away from predators.

Interestingly enough, cavemen 10,000 years ago had a life expectancy of over 30 years, longer than that of modern society until just a few hundred years ago when things like modern medicine and the Industrial Revolution bumped up life expectancy.

When you say you question the way you feel, do you mean physically? Everyone has off days, but as a whole, I would guess that you feel (and look) much better since adopting a primal lifestyle. Correct me if I'm wrong.

-ers

[thewildcat]

I think the biggest reason people fall for conventional wisdom (aside from massive advertising from Industrialized Food companies and the cost-effectiveness of said food) is that they believe that the switch to Industrialized Food is a cause of the rise in life expectancy. However, this belief is almost certainly flat-out wrong. The increase in life expectancy over the past century is caused by three main factors:


Sanitation
Penicillin
Drop in crime


But look: heart disease, diabetes, and other modern-day diseases have increased! There appears to be little evidence that Paleo men had cancer, tooth decay, or other modern-day diseases. Nearly all death was due to infections or trauma.

Plus, if we are talking about LONG-TERM, Paleo men are the best to look at for long-term!. We have only been on the modern Industrial diet for a brief period in the history of mankind, and look at what has happened to us; while the Paleo-kind followed their way of living for thousands and thousands of years.

[pkafka]

I understand that Cave people died young because of X factors, and not health factors... My point was that since they did not live to be old, we do not know whether their diets would have lead to heart disease, diabetes, etc.

All in all, I think that natural living is healthy living. In fact, there is no doubt in my mind. But, I do at times wonder if our fats today are really the same as those of the past. And if the eating principles of being primal align with our lifestyles today (which are substantially different than those of cave people).

-pk

[BarbeyGirl]

You're not alone, pk. I wonder about this, too.

Sure, I feel better, leaner, and stronger NOW...but what about when I'm 90?

On the other hand, abundant energy and healthy skin and powerful muscling and all the other tangibles of being primal have always been acknowledged as evidence of good health. The lab results shared by some of the tribe are astonishing. We avoid as much unnatural processing, additives, etc as we can. Many of us consume a wide variety of plant and animal foods, both of which boast research demonstrating their myriad benefits.

I figure the best thing to do is keep reading, questioning, and paying attention to our bodies. Do what works for us. Don't get caught in dogma, but flex to find the truth.

[Acmebike]

Tough call, SAD, Vegan, Fruitarian, Paleo Hardliner, we all end up dead. And it is frankly remarkable how long people hang on with whatever nutrition and lifestyle choice they end up with (sadly very few people actually make a conscious decision no matter the outcome). But honestly we will all end up dead, and averages are what they are. Once some Paleo folks live forever, we'll have something to crow about!

But I see it around me every day, the poor effects of NON-Paleo/Primal living (and NOT just the diet, but lifestyle). But I see folks in their mid 50s, that could not sprint for 30 seconds, lift a 20lb sand bag up onto a shoulder high wall, and then scramble over that wall. How necessary is this sort of mino-athleticism? It is a reflection of overall health and ability. I'd rather remain robust, so that when I am 80, I can live in my own home and take care of myself. Not to need nursing care and help off a toilet! Our actions now mold how our flexibility, strength, awareness, bone density etc will be in old age, whatever that should be defined as.

Face it, our genetic heritage is done and cares nothing for us past breeding age. We have precious little to offer our species as we age. There may be some sociologic benefit to grandparents living long enough to pass on some knowledge (where to hunt, what to gather, how to survive cold, how to find water...) but it is up to us to cheat that destiny to maintain a body and mind we can enjoy and make use of until that last day.

It is becoming clear that a paleo/primal nutritional plan (animal sourced foods, vegetables, and limited nuts/fruit) is the proper intake for us from cradle to maturity, so why should it change at some point that man-made vegetable oils, man-made grains, and processed foods should somehow become advantageous beyond a certain age? I say stick to the organ meats, stay with a concentrated animal foods based diet, continue strenuous activity, and push that active lifespan out as long as possible.

[Posy]

Does this happen to anyone else? Do you ever find yourself questioning whether the primal way is the right way? And then start to wonder about the long term effects of the primal lifestyle?


I don‘t question it…but I didn’t discover this way of eating until I had already become extremely ill, so the proof was in the pudding for me. The difference in my health from just food alone still blows my mind to this very day because it's like I was never sick.
So I HAD to try something different but I admire the people here greatly who eat primal without ever having had poor health first! It’s only more recently that I’m understanding how some might question this path from time to time…got’a be a bit different if you’ve not experienced it first hand. So I guess the answer is to keep learning, and by all means keep an open mind to adjusting or deleting items from your diet. For a quick affirm, swing by the pharmacy area of your grocery store for a few minutes. You’re likely to see a lot of what you want to avoid. If they’ve been shopping, check out what’s in the carts. It’s sad but some times seeing is believing over anything else.


I say stick to the organ meats, stay with a concentrated animal foods based diet, continue strenuous activity, and push that active lifespan out as long as possible.

Ditto that!!!
(I'm still working on the organ meats, they kind'a creep me out...took me forever to get use to salmon, love it now though)

[pkafka]

Tough call, SAD, Vegan, Fruitarian, Paleo Hardliner, we all end up dead. And it is frankly remarkable how long people hang on with whatever nutrition and lifestyle choice they end up with (sadly very few people actually make a conscious decision no matter the outcome). But honestly we will all end up dead, and averages are what they are. Once some Paleo folks live forever, we'll have something to crow about!

So true... thanks for bringing us back down to earth. This perspective is much needed. I think a lot of people (myself included) can get way too obsessed with what they consume. They focus so much on the micro details of what they eat, that they forget why they are doing it - to live a full, robust, and healthy life. Acme - would you agree that the healthiest life, at times, involves diverging from your strict, paleo diet? I know you are a huge believer in the diet, because you are an example of a first hand success story.

Another thing I often consider is - how does a certain way of eating make me feel mentally, as well as physically? I am only 23, and until this point in my life, I have led an extremely active lifestyle, so when I change my diet up, physically, I do not tell too much of a difference. However eating naturally (paleo... and the paleo without the dairy!) always makes my mind feel much better than any other diet. That is why so many people, I feel, have a hard time switching to extremely high fat intake... because mentally, it makes them feel guilty, or something like that.


But I see it around me every day, the poor effects of NON-Paleo/Primal living (and NOT just the diet, but lifestyle). But I see folks in their mid 50s, that could not sprint for 30 seconds, lift a 20lb sand bag up onto a shoulder high wall, and then scramble over that wall. How necessary is this sort of mino-athleticism? It is a reflection of overall health and ability. I'd rather remain robust, so that when I am 80, I can live in my own home and take care of myself. Not to need nursing care and help off a toilet! Our actions now mold how our flexibility, strength, awareness, bone density etc will be in old age, whatever that should be defined as.

Exactly how I see it... and I am only 23! I want to be independent my entire life. I want to be able to do things for myself 'til the day I die.



I say stick to the organ meats, stay with a concentrated animal foods based diet, continue strenuous activity, and push that active lifespan out as long as possible.

I love chicken heart!

-pk

Thanks for the thoughtful post.

[Acmebike]

"- would you agree that the healthiest life, at times, involves diverging from your strict, paleo diet?"

Hoo boy, the $64k question, at this point, I tend to be more strict! When faced with a poor food choice at a social function, while on a road trip, while not in control of the food supply, I tend to just not eat. I don't stress about it, so I suppose that fits a healthy lifestyle! If one were truly stressed about saying "no" to a favorite Grandma's special cookies, perhaps a polite bite or two is the healthy choice! But for me, currently, "no means no", and carries no added guilt/stress.

Funny, I am sitting in the Denver Airport, having just had my carry-on triple checked getting on the flight at LAX so they could review my jerky, pemmican, pistachio nuts and ham that I'm carrying. That's right 1.2 lb ham, and I have to find a knife to politely slice myself off a snack.

Bully for you finding this nutrition and lifestyle at 23. I had a big turn around as I approached 40 (http://freetheanimal.com/2009/06/nothing-like-a-picture-reader-transformation.html) and can only wish to reverse the damage I must have put myself through sooner! With my first child on the way in April (finally developed some swimmers after discovering Paleo Nutrition), I plan to grow a proper human, as I now see the nutrition young people get now as the abomination that it is! That kid should have the benefits of lifelong Paleo living. All I can do is start him/her right, and that is the plan.

[klcarbaugh]

Well, as far is evolution is concerned, agriculture was the best thing for our species becasue it allowed us to reproduce more and even reproduce at a younger age due to the ability of grains, fructose, and omega-6 to mess with hormones in a very bad way including raising insulin (allows us to develop and mature sooner... but also age and die sooner). These hormonal consequences certainly occur and it has been established by hundreds of separate research groups that the consequences of these hormonal changes are cancer and diabetes later in life. Biochemical, clinical, and observational evidence all point to: the lower the insulin, the better. My version of the paleo diet first focused on getting rid of lectins (which can lead to insulin resistance, WGA binds to insulin receptors), fructose and linoleic acid. Eliminating each of these results in multiple beneficial effects on the hormonal level (it is not the food, it is the hormones, that matter). Lowering carbs and protein as much as possible are also of primary importance since both protein and carbohydrate raise insulin (so simply consuming less of these will help tremendously in lowering insulin)
No doctor or researcher would disagree with this fact that low insulin is a universal marker of health. Some centenarians studied are vegetarian and some smoke and drink all their lives, yet the only thing that is the same about every person who has lived a very long and healthy life is they have low levels of insulin. High insulin even causes CVD and arterial plaque build up at the site when it is dripped into animals arteries. For more information on insulin, you can read this: http://www.drrosedale.com/resources/pdf/Insulin%20and%20Its%20Metabolic%20Effects.pdf

Insulin, adeponectin, leptin, mTor levels, vitamin D, and to some degree HDL cholesterol and triglycerides are blood markers of health. Every one single one improves on a high fat paleo diet.

Also, in the beginning, reading Good Calories Bad Calories twice in two weeks certainly changed my mind about a lot of things.

I used to doubt high fat, now I really can't thought I still always look for flaws in the paleo reasoning so I don't get too caught up in the dogma. Lowering protein is the only thing I have found significant evidence for that is certainly not advocated in many paleo approaches (except for PaNu and Primal Body, Primal Mind), but I still think that might not be necessary in everyone... I will never stop learning. I will never stop questioning. If I have ended up here due to having an open, critical mind, I think that means something. When I was on a "healthy" whole grain USDA diet before, my facts were much more limited and my opinions driven by politics instead of science (we should be ashamed of nutritional "science" as it is so full of crap and biased funding, etc.).

[BarbeyGirl]

Well stated, klcarbaugh. I'm interested in looking into the lower-protein thought. Do you happen to recall any particular PaNu post(s)? Must order PB, PM...

[celtia]

I guess I mostly just worry about the present. I figure that since giving up grains and sugars pretty much eliminated gas, bloating, acid reflux, gallbladder spasms, dry eye, breathing difficulties, achy joints, and keeps a lid on my sensory issues, I'm doing what my body needs right now. And I have no reason to believe that my body will suddenly need something majorly, paradigm-shiftingly different at 50 , than it needs right now at 40.

[pkafka]

Acmebike

Hoo boy, the $64k question, at this point, I tend to be more strict! When faced with a poor food choice at a social function, while on a road trip, while not in control of the food supply, I tend to just not eat. I don't stress about it, so I suppose that fits a healthy lifestyle! If one were truly stressed about saying "no" to a favorite Grandma's special cookies, perhaps a polite bite or two is the healthy choice! But for me, currently, "no means no", and carries no added guilt/stress.

That is important... very important. So much of this is just basic psychology 101 - go back to Freud:

We must develop our EGO by suppressing our ID (pure desires - ie wanting to eat cake), and not feeling bound by our SUPEREGO (desire to adhere to social conventions - ie eating cake at a bday party)... Acme, it seems like you have a strong EGO! haha, that is great, I am on and off with that at time. I think I give into social situations too often, not because of pressure, but because it is an excuse! You know? I'm working on it.


Funny, I am sitting in the Denver Airport, having just had my carry-on triple checked getting on the flight at LAX so they could review my jerky, pemmican, pistachio nuts and ham that I'm carrying. That's right 1.2 lb ham, and I have to find a knife to politely slice myself off a snack.

Sweet! haha


Bully for you finding this nutrition and lifestyle at 23. I had a big turn around as I approached 40 (http://freetheanimal.com/2009/06/not...formation.html) and can only wish to reverse the damage I must have put myself through sooner! With my first child on the way in April (finally developed some swimmers after discovering Paleo Nutrition), I plan to grow a proper human, as I now see the nutrition young people get now as the abomination that it is! That kid should have the benefits of lifelong Paleo living. All I can do is start him/her right, and that is the plan.

Is it proven that it was the change in your diet that rejuvenated your "swimmers"? If so, that is huge!

klcarbaugh - Interesting post, I have never come across info about protein raising insulin... Do you have more information on this? I am very low carb, and high protein/high fat. A lot of times, those two go together, fat and protein that is.

Celtia


I guess I mostly just worry about the present. I figure that since giving up grains and sugars pretty much eliminated gas, bloating, acid reflux, gallbladder spasms, dry eye, breathing difficulties, achy joints, and keeps a lid on my sensory issues, I'm doing what my body needs right now. And I have no reason to believe that my body will suddenly need something majorly, paradigm-shiftingly different at 50 , than it needs right now at 40.

Makes perfect, logical sense. Thanks for the clear perspective.

-pk

[carla]

klcarbaugh, thank you for your thoughts. I loved reading Primal Body, Primal Mind and recently heard Gedgaudes interviewed. You can find the excellent interview
at www.pantedmonkey.org She really makes me rethink how much protein I should include in my diet. I do appreciate your insightful post. "I will never stop learning.
I will never stop questioning." Bravo!!

[carla]

Great Choice, Barbey,
It's the best book I've read in a long time. Please go to www.pantedmonkey.org and scroll down to an interview with Nora Gedgaudes. Her thoughts on protein were
exceedingly interesting and may be an answer to how to feed the world....not so much protein, but more healthy fats. Her meal of the night before was a couple of slices
of good steak with an onion and mushrooms cooked with lots of butter.

[BarbeyGirl]

I have never come across info about protein raising insulin... Do you have more information on this? I am very low carb, and high protein/high fat. A lot of times, those two go together, fat and protein that is.



I found this interesting, too, and want to learn more. For what it's worth, I'm currently reading the Eades' Protein Power and they indicate (on a chart in chapter 3) that protein alone raises insulin and glucagon in equal measure, as does a protein/fat combo. However, a high protein/low carb combo raises insulin more than glucaton, and a low protein/high carb combo raises insulin WAY more than glucagon -- even more than carbs alone.

Must keep reading...